Ok, here is where it gets sticky for me...
Dogmas of the Catholic church about Mary:
Virgin Birth: Jesus was born of a virgin.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was born without original sin, essentially born saved, so that she could give birth to Jesus without giving him original sin.
Perpetual Virginity: She stayed a virgin all her life, and Joseph agreed to support this calling on her life by abstaining along with her so she could be faithful to God's call as Jesus' mom.
Ascension into Heaven: Mary ascended like Jesus did, she did not die.
Virgin Birth: I absolutely believe.
Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Luke 1:26-42 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
Immaculate Conception:
Why is it necessary? If she could come from a mom that had original sin, and supposedly not have it, why couldn't Jesus have the same miracle instead? Being "born saved" like this Dogma teaches, would also take away Mary's choice to be saved or not. Mary had a choice to accept carrying him, a choice to believe in him as the savior or not, and a chance to reject his plan of salvation - which may still not have been her expectation or plan, but she took it all as it came.
"Full of Grace" does not mean "without sin." I looked up "full of grace" in Greek, and asked a friend who had resources to study the word that I do not have to look it up too. Here is what we found:
G5487 χαριτόω / charitoō / From G5485 [see below]; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.
G5485: χάρις / charis / From G5463 [see below]; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
G5463: χαίρω / chairō / A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.
I totally see that there was divine favor, and grace to be able to do something. She would need an amazing fortitude to do all that she did, and only God could provide that. However I don't find it compelling evidence for lack of original sin or any such like. As far as the argument in the catechism video, "If you existed before your mother, and could make her any way you wanted, how would you make her?" It depends what your goal was in making this mother and coming into the world. One of the things we all have to deal with is growing up with imperfect parents. I surely don't think Mary was abusive, but what is the point of coming to walk our path with us and understand what we are going through (Heb 4:15) if you're going to spare yourself imperfect parenting? You can't identify with all our temptations if you spare yourself from a major test/temptation that is universal to the rest of humankind. If his mom had no original sin, it would negatively impact his ability to live in the world like we do, with imperfect and original-sin carrying parents.
I can see how being the spawn of the Holy spirit could alone protect Jesus from original sin. What would have caused that for Mary? Nothing.
This is not adding up...
Dogmas of the Catholic church about Mary:
Virgin Birth: Jesus was born of a virgin.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was born without original sin, essentially born saved, so that she could give birth to Jesus without giving him original sin.
Perpetual Virginity: She stayed a virgin all her life, and Joseph agreed to support this calling on her life by abstaining along with her so she could be faithful to God's call as Jesus' mom.
Ascension into Heaven: Mary ascended like Jesus did, she did not die.
Virgin Birth: I absolutely believe.
Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Luke 1:26-42 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
Immaculate Conception:
Why is it necessary? If she could come from a mom that had original sin, and supposedly not have it, why couldn't Jesus have the same miracle instead? Being "born saved" like this Dogma teaches, would also take away Mary's choice to be saved or not. Mary had a choice to accept carrying him, a choice to believe in him as the savior or not, and a chance to reject his plan of salvation - which may still not have been her expectation or plan, but she took it all as it came.
"Full of Grace" does not mean "without sin." I looked up "full of grace" in Greek, and asked a friend who had resources to study the word that I do not have to look it up too. Here is what we found:
G5487 χαριτόω / charitoō / From G5485 [see below]; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.
G5485: χάρις / charis / From G5463 [see below]; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
G5463: χαίρω / chairō / A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.
I totally see that there was divine favor, and grace to be able to do something. She would need an amazing fortitude to do all that she did, and only God could provide that. However I don't find it compelling evidence for lack of original sin or any such like. As far as the argument in the catechism video, "If you existed before your mother, and could make her any way you wanted, how would you make her?" It depends what your goal was in making this mother and coming into the world. One of the things we all have to deal with is growing up with imperfect parents. I surely don't think Mary was abusive, but what is the point of coming to walk our path with us and understand what we are going through (Heb 4:15) if you're going to spare yourself imperfect parenting? You can't identify with all our temptations if you spare yourself from a major test/temptation that is universal to the rest of humankind. If his mom had no original sin, it would negatively impact his ability to live in the world like we do, with imperfect and original-sin carrying parents.
I can see how being the spawn of the Holy spirit could alone protect Jesus from original sin. What would have caused that for Mary? Nothing.
This is not adding up...
While I deeply appreciate Mary and her gifts to the world through her obedience and sacrifice, I struggle a lot with some of the dogmas about her.
I wonder what she would think if she heard them...
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