Regardless of how this goes, whether I do get confirmed or not, I do want to clarify one more thing about Mary before I forget again.
"Queen of Heaven" does NOT mean to put St. Mary above, or on par with, God.
They say that in the Bible, the Isreali king's wife had to ask permission to come in, and bow, and do everything else the same way that others in the kingdom had to. The kind's mom on the other hand was the Queen Mother. She could walk right in and ask for something on somebody's behalf and pretty much expect it to get done. She definitely could not make decisions like the king, but held an awful lot of sway in his court.
Addressing Mary as Queen of Heaven is a reference to the ancient Isreali "Queen Mother" type of situation (though the term is not often used in the Bible) combined with the same beliefs behind "prayers" to saints. Look at 1 Kings 1:14-16, compared with 1 Kings 2:18-20. Bathsheba as King's wife versus Bathsheba as King's mom. That is where they get these notions about Mary. The term "Queen Mother" is not used but the idea they call "Queen Mother" is illustrated here, When they say that Mary sits at Jesus' right hand, it's because Bathsheba sat at Solomon's right hand. Therefore they infer that Jewish King's moms sat at their right hand and held a lot of influence. They think Mary has a position in Heaven kind of like Bathsheba had in Solomon's court, and is so very highly favored, throughout eternity.
"Queen of Heaven" is not intended to revere Mary as a God(dess). I was really thrown by that "Queen of Heaven" reference a lot too, until it was explained. They also point to the story of turning Water into wine and say that Mary's intercession altered Jesus' decision about whether to do something about the wine shortage to demonstrate that she has the same degree of favor and her prayers have same impact as Bathsheba seems to have had in Solomon's court. They infer therefore that Prophet Priest and "King of the Jews" Jesus has the same setup in Heaven's court. That does not make her an actual ruler of Heaven, nor on par with God in Roman Catholic theology, though.
Personally, I am not sure I think the throne room in heaven works like the Isreali king's court did, just I know it resembles the temple/tabernacle Moses was ordered to set up and which foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice and etc. The temple and the palace weren't the same thing. However, I understand the thinking, how they could think that way and say that. They are trying to keep with Jewish roots, and it may or may not have gone awry here, but at least no one need freak about idolatry. Not when it comes to an informed/educated Catholic anyway. Some people pay no better attention in catechism than some folks do in school, which is not much, and they walk out with weird ideas, I am told.
There are individuals who pray always to Mary and ask her to take everything to Jesus for them, but that is not required. There is a question of "Minimalism and Maximalism" concerning Mariology in the Catholic Church. The over-emphasis on Mary has been warned against by influential Catholics for centuries, but the opposite extreme is also warned against, and that is acting like she is no big deal at all or being too timid in presentation of her... well, basically what Protestants do.
So I hope I cleared that up for some people.
There are some prayers or songs I am not comfortable singing because I am uncomfortable saying the words in them to anyone but God. I rather doubt that Mary is offended by that, honestly, and these prayers are not required, as far as I know.
Godspeed.
~Mother Star
About Me
- Mother Star
- Welcome to my humble abode. Feel free to sit down a while and warm yourself by my fire. I write here mainly to inspire, encourage, perhaps confront, to empower, and to change. If you leave with a lighter step, an answer to a question, really questioning long held ideas that may not be taking you where you need to go, or with a lot of new things to consider, I will have done my job. Please enjoy your stay. With love, ~Mother Star
Showing posts with label theology. Show all posts
Showing posts with label theology. Show all posts
Wednesday, December 24, 2014
Saturday, December 20, 2014
Adventures in RCIA - Mary the Mother of Jesus Pt 2
Continuing on this sticky (for me) subject...
Dogmas of the Catholic church about Mary:
Virgin Birth: Jesus was born of a virgin.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was born without original sin, essentially born saved, so that she could give birth to Jesus without giving him original sin.
Perpetual Virginity: She stayed a virgin all her life, and Joseph agreed to support this calling on her life by abstaining along with her so she could be faithful to God's call as Jesus' mom.
Ascension into Heaven: Mary ascended like Jesus did, she did not die.
I covered the first two before. Now lets finish out the second half of the list.
Perpetual Virginity
This Catholic Dogma presents Joseph as sort of submitting, like a Western man might think of it, to give up the Western "masculine sex-right" to honor Mary's alleged call form God.
Joseph was Jewish, as Mary was.
Jewish view of sexuality:
Sex between a husband and wife is a mitzvah, which is a lot like our word sacrament. It is a commandment, and a meritorious or charitable act.
Jewish people link sexuality in marriage with holiness, so this dogma states that they served God by violating His rules for their lives as married people. From the Jewish Virtual Library:
"Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.
Although sex is the woman's right, she does not have absolute discretion to withhold it from her husband. A woman may not withhold sex from her husband as a form of punishment, and if she does, the husband may divorce her without paying the substantial divorce settlement provided for in the ketubah."
To us Westerner's that might sound gross, or perverse, but it is the Jewish way going far, far back to ancient times. The mitzvah of procreation is a separate one, the pleasure and bonding aspect is also sacred in Judaism, not just procreation.
If you told our very beloved, Jewish, Mother of God the dogma that she responded to God's call by staying a virgin after she was married, this would have been, to her ears, bordering on blasphemy/sacrilege. It would mean that God called her and Joseph to sin, basically. To be married and abstain the whole time is, for them, about as bad as doing stuff when you are not married. It's on par with adultery, as we know it, and grounds for divorce.
A marriage counselor, Earl Henslin, who has worked with many Jewish couples wrote in Chapter 2 of This is Your Brain on Love that no matter how bad things are in their marriages, it does not get into their bedroom. Why? "I am not going to have sex with my spouse" is like saying "I am not going to pray." He writes, "It is unthinkable," because they link marital sexuality with holiness.
Mary was Jewish. Mary was married. Therefore, Mary had three basic rights Joseph was supposed to provide: food, shelter and sex. I don't think it will kill anyone to live without it, but still, they were Jewish, and that was and is Jewish teaching.
Matthew 1:24-25. "...he took her [Mary] as his wife, but had no marital relations with her until she had born a son; and he named him Jesus."
That word "until" is two Greek words:
heos Strong's #2193 Definitions: of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).
hou Strong's #3757 Definitions: generic of (3739) as adverb; at which place, i.e. where: - where (-in), whither ([-soever]).
It seems to indicate a span of time terminating at a given point. The point given in this case is the birth of Jesus. The necessity of abstinence was over then, Jesus did not need her to abstain anymore. Since she was a godly, Jewish, married woman, she had a different requirement for holy living than she did as the single or merely betrothed woman that she was when He was conceived. Nothing happened between them until after he was born, no doubt. After he was born, they clearly carried on with the mitzvah ordained by God for married people, since that is what they were. If they did not, they would have been less holy, not more. This mitzvah is not inextricably tied to procreation in Judaism either, so not having any (surviving?) children at Jesus' death does not really mean anything either.
The dogma of Perpetual virginity does not make any sense, given that Mary was Jewish, as Joseph also was.
Do I believe that Early Christians believed this? Absolutely. Many of them came from pagan cultures that had practices that could put extreme ideas about virginity in their heads. Old ideas sometimes die really hard, or don't die at all. However, that does not mean God would actually have called two Jewish people to live like that. These are very definitely pagan ideas, not sanctioned or created by YHVH.
Finally, Mary is an example to us. If she remained a virgin until married, and waited even longer because of carrying Jesus, but carried out God's intent for married women after he was born, then she is a great example. An ideal.
If she went through life pretending to be a good wife before the world while not living or relating in that important relationship like she was supposed to, refraining from a commanded and meritous behavior (mitzvah means a command, and a charitable or meritous act), then she is a bad example to follow, and so not much of a saint. Right? I believe the Catholic Church has attempted to be very true to the beginings, but this is a point where the pagan ways were not left behind, and Mary would likely be very upset by this story.
Assumption into Heaven
I would need more information. I think it is possible, kind of like Enoch and Elijah. I have no certainty at this point though, since I already see evidence of the early church projecting things onto Mary that seemed great to them but could not be true (e.g. Perpetual Virginity). Therefore, I really don't know. It sounds good, but that isn't enough for me...
This song has always been really cool to me. Now that I am studying and thinking about Mary more, it means even more than it ever did, with or without Immaculate conception or Perpetual Virginity. So Hail, Mary, full of grace.
Godspeed.
~ M. S.
Dogmas of the Catholic church about Mary:
Virgin Birth: Jesus was born of a virgin.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was born without original sin, essentially born saved, so that she could give birth to Jesus without giving him original sin.
Perpetual Virginity: She stayed a virgin all her life, and Joseph agreed to support this calling on her life by abstaining along with her so she could be faithful to God's call as Jesus' mom.
Ascension into Heaven: Mary ascended like Jesus did, she did not die.
I covered the first two before. Now lets finish out the second half of the list.
Perpetual Virginity
This Catholic Dogma presents Joseph as sort of submitting, like a Western man might think of it, to give up the Western "masculine sex-right" to honor Mary's alleged call form God.
Joseph was Jewish, as Mary was.
Jewish view of sexuality:
Sex between a husband and wife is a mitzvah, which is a lot like our word sacrament. It is a commandment, and a meritorious or charitable act.
Jewish people link sexuality in marriage with holiness, so this dogma states that they served God by violating His rules for their lives as married people. From the Jewish Virtual Library:
"Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.
Although sex is the woman's right, she does not have absolute discretion to withhold it from her husband. A woman may not withhold sex from her husband as a form of punishment, and if she does, the husband may divorce her without paying the substantial divorce settlement provided for in the ketubah."
To us Westerner's that might sound gross, or perverse, but it is the Jewish way going far, far back to ancient times. The mitzvah of procreation is a separate one, the pleasure and bonding aspect is also sacred in Judaism, not just procreation.
If you told our very beloved, Jewish, Mother of God the dogma that she responded to God's call by staying a virgin after she was married, this would have been, to her ears, bordering on blasphemy/sacrilege. It would mean that God called her and Joseph to sin, basically. To be married and abstain the whole time is, for them, about as bad as doing stuff when you are not married. It's on par with adultery, as we know it, and grounds for divorce.
A marriage counselor, Earl Henslin, who has worked with many Jewish couples wrote in Chapter 2 of This is Your Brain on Love that no matter how bad things are in their marriages, it does not get into their bedroom. Why? "I am not going to have sex with my spouse" is like saying "I am not going to pray." He writes, "It is unthinkable," because they link marital sexuality with holiness.
Mary was Jewish. Mary was married. Therefore, Mary had three basic rights Joseph was supposed to provide: food, shelter and sex. I don't think it will kill anyone to live without it, but still, they were Jewish, and that was and is Jewish teaching.
Matthew 1:24-25. "...he took her [Mary] as his wife, but had no marital relations with her until she had born a son; and he named him Jesus."
That word "until" is two Greek words:
heos Strong's #2193 Definitions: of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).
hou Strong's #3757 Definitions: generic of (3739) as adverb; at which place, i.e. where: - where (-in), whither ([-soever]).
It seems to indicate a span of time terminating at a given point. The point given in this case is the birth of Jesus. The necessity of abstinence was over then, Jesus did not need her to abstain anymore. Since she was a godly, Jewish, married woman, she had a different requirement for holy living than she did as the single or merely betrothed woman that she was when He was conceived. Nothing happened between them until after he was born, no doubt. After he was born, they clearly carried on with the mitzvah ordained by God for married people, since that is what they were. If they did not, they would have been less holy, not more. This mitzvah is not inextricably tied to procreation in Judaism either, so not having any (surviving?) children at Jesus' death does not really mean anything either.
The dogma of Perpetual virginity does not make any sense, given that Mary was Jewish, as Joseph also was.
Do I believe that Early Christians believed this? Absolutely. Many of them came from pagan cultures that had practices that could put extreme ideas about virginity in their heads. Old ideas sometimes die really hard, or don't die at all. However, that does not mean God would actually have called two Jewish people to live like that. These are very definitely pagan ideas, not sanctioned or created by YHVH.
Finally, Mary is an example to us. If she remained a virgin until married, and waited even longer because of carrying Jesus, but carried out God's intent for married women after he was born, then she is a great example. An ideal.
If she went through life pretending to be a good wife before the world while not living or relating in that important relationship like she was supposed to, refraining from a commanded and meritous behavior (mitzvah means a command, and a charitable or meritous act), then she is a bad example to follow, and so not much of a saint. Right? I believe the Catholic Church has attempted to be very true to the beginings, but this is a point where the pagan ways were not left behind, and Mary would likely be very upset by this story.
Assumption into Heaven
I would need more information. I think it is possible, kind of like Enoch and Elijah. I have no certainty at this point though, since I already see evidence of the early church projecting things onto Mary that seemed great to them but could not be true (e.g. Perpetual Virginity). Therefore, I really don't know. It sounds good, but that isn't enough for me...
This song has always been really cool to me. Now that I am studying and thinking about Mary more, it means even more than it ever did, with or without Immaculate conception or Perpetual Virginity. So Hail, Mary, full of grace.
Godspeed.
~ M. S.
Adventures in RCIA - Mary the Mother of Jesus Pt. 1
Ok, here is where it gets sticky for me...
Dogmas of the Catholic church about Mary:
Virgin Birth: Jesus was born of a virgin.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was born without original sin, essentially born saved, so that she could give birth to Jesus without giving him original sin.
Perpetual Virginity: She stayed a virgin all her life, and Joseph agreed to support this calling on her life by abstaining along with her so she could be faithful to God's call as Jesus' mom.
Ascension into Heaven: Mary ascended like Jesus did, she did not die.
Virgin Birth: I absolutely believe.
Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Luke 1:26-42 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
Immaculate Conception:
Why is it necessary? If she could come from a mom that had original sin, and supposedly not have it, why couldn't Jesus have the same miracle instead? Being "born saved" like this Dogma teaches, would also take away Mary's choice to be saved or not. Mary had a choice to accept carrying him, a choice to believe in him as the savior or not, and a chance to reject his plan of salvation - which may still not have been her expectation or plan, but she took it all as it came.
"Full of Grace" does not mean "without sin." I looked up "full of grace" in Greek, and asked a friend who had resources to study the word that I do not have to look it up too. Here is what we found:
G5487 χαριτόω / charitoō / From G5485 [see below]; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.
G5485: χάρις / charis / From G5463 [see below]; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
G5463: χαίρω / chairō / A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.
I totally see that there was divine favor, and grace to be able to do something. She would need an amazing fortitude to do all that she did, and only God could provide that. However I don't find it compelling evidence for lack of original sin or any such like. As far as the argument in the catechism video, "If you existed before your mother, and could make her any way you wanted, how would you make her?" It depends what your goal was in making this mother and coming into the world. One of the things we all have to deal with is growing up with imperfect parents. I surely don't think Mary was abusive, but what is the point of coming to walk our path with us and understand what we are going through (Heb 4:15) if you're going to spare yourself imperfect parenting? You can't identify with all our temptations if you spare yourself from a major test/temptation that is universal to the rest of humankind. If his mom had no original sin, it would negatively impact his ability to live in the world like we do, with imperfect and original-sin carrying parents.
I can see how being the spawn of the Holy spirit could alone protect Jesus from original sin. What would have caused that for Mary? Nothing.
This is not adding up...
Dogmas of the Catholic church about Mary:
Virgin Birth: Jesus was born of a virgin.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was born without original sin, essentially born saved, so that she could give birth to Jesus without giving him original sin.
Perpetual Virginity: She stayed a virgin all her life, and Joseph agreed to support this calling on her life by abstaining along with her so she could be faithful to God's call as Jesus' mom.
Ascension into Heaven: Mary ascended like Jesus did, she did not die.
Virgin Birth: I absolutely believe.
Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Luke 1:26-42 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
Immaculate Conception:
Why is it necessary? If she could come from a mom that had original sin, and supposedly not have it, why couldn't Jesus have the same miracle instead? Being "born saved" like this Dogma teaches, would also take away Mary's choice to be saved or not. Mary had a choice to accept carrying him, a choice to believe in him as the savior or not, and a chance to reject his plan of salvation - which may still not have been her expectation or plan, but she took it all as it came.
"Full of Grace" does not mean "without sin." I looked up "full of grace" in Greek, and asked a friend who had resources to study the word that I do not have to look it up too. Here is what we found:
G5487 χαριτόω / charitoō / From G5485 [see below]; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.
G5485: χάρις / charis / From G5463 [see below]; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
G5463: χαίρω / chairō / A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.
I totally see that there was divine favor, and grace to be able to do something. She would need an amazing fortitude to do all that she did, and only God could provide that. However I don't find it compelling evidence for lack of original sin or any such like. As far as the argument in the catechism video, "If you existed before your mother, and could make her any way you wanted, how would you make her?" It depends what your goal was in making this mother and coming into the world. One of the things we all have to deal with is growing up with imperfect parents. I surely don't think Mary was abusive, but what is the point of coming to walk our path with us and understand what we are going through (Heb 4:15) if you're going to spare yourself imperfect parenting? You can't identify with all our temptations if you spare yourself from a major test/temptation that is universal to the rest of humankind. If his mom had no original sin, it would negatively impact his ability to live in the world like we do, with imperfect and original-sin carrying parents.
I can see how being the spawn of the Holy spirit could alone protect Jesus from original sin. What would have caused that for Mary? Nothing.
This is not adding up...
While I deeply appreciate Mary and her gifts to the world through her obedience and sacrifice, I struggle a lot with some of the dogmas about her.
I wonder what she would think if she heard them...
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)